The whole debate about whether to take ice axe and crampons on one's Challenge route revolves around a number of issues which should be considered together:

1. The amount and state of the snow - e.g. is it fresh snow over hard neve? Is it ice covering rocks? What are the slope angles and is there any avalanche potential?

2. What are the prevailing weather conditions? Blizzards, sunshine, calm, windy, stormy?

3. What is the winter experience of the individual proposing to ascend high under winter conditions?

4. Has the individual developed and practiced the skills of correctly using ice axe and crampons? Can the individual actually arrest a slide or a fall on a snow (or ice) slope? It's amazing how many people simply do not know or have not practiced the correct use of the hardware they carry. Practising arrest skills under controlled conditions is essential before heading upwards with ice axe in hand.

5. Has the individual had experience (under controlled conditions) of moving and navigating in a white out ? If one lacks the necessary experience and skills for safe and competent progress under these conditions, they can be a real killer.

6. Carrying basic winter gear is fine for day ascents from a fixed base, but it takes real effort and determination to carry such hardware plus food, tent, stove, clothes etc on a multi day continuous trip.


As someone who has 40 years of winter ice climbing experience in Scotland (Ben Nevis, Glencoe, Cairngorms), plus snow and ice climbing / mountaineering in the Alps, Caucasus and Himalaya, I shall not be carrying ice axe and crampons on TGOC13. Carrying such gear adds weight to one's load which may compromise completion of a successful crossing. The time constraints of TGOC13 do not make it an event for engaging in serious winter mountaineering. If full winter conditions do prevail on the higher hills, we will not be nipping over any Munros to show how tough we are. Instead, we will simply stick to the glens, lower hills and easier passes. For us, it's about getting across safely within the time available, without having to carry too much excess hardware. We have done enough serious winter mountaineering to appreciate the limitations dictated by imposed time constraints.

Last year, whilst mountaineering in the Alps, we safely and efficiently traversed 2500m snow blocked passes using only our trekking poles. It all comes down to experience, being aware of prevailing conditions and actually knowing how to correctly use the gear you carry.

As a final thought, it may be swollen rivers we all have to cope with if the temperatures rise and the snow cover starts to melt.

Stuart

Stuart, I would like to strongly support all the points you make.

I would like to point Challengers to the Sport Scotland Avalanche Information pages http://www.sais.gov.uk/index.asp. The fact that they have extended their forecasts until now indicates that there is a serious risk. The next forecast will be on Friday 3rd May. Other very useful information about snow conditions is available on the forecaster’s blog sites.

If you don’t have the training and experience to navigate in winter conditions and to judge avalanche risk, then please just don’t go there. We have already had too many avalanche deaths in Scotland this winter.

I would like to wish everyone a safe and enjoyable crossing!

Emma

Top reply Stuart.

Hope to see you chaps on route somewhere

Nuff said.

A1 reply Stuart could not agree more if its bad stay of the tops
and use a bit of common ???

Yes, well said & very sensible, but I think most of us are thinking only of a little bit of snow near the tops of otherwise clear hills, in lovely clear weather - like those pictures in the Walkhighlands report someone mentioned earlier.

I certainly have no intention of going up into full winter/avalanche territory: I do have winter climbing experience but I agree the full safe kit for such activities doesn't feel like what the Challenge is about. Seems to me this discussion relates (or did at first) to limited areas of those indeterminate, in-between conditions that you may not even know about until you're up there, or that may arise anew during the trip.

Pre-departure weather reports from "on the spot" are really useful.

hi Jean

Will update as we go along next week. Snow's melting fast at the moment although the Cairngorm summits are still plastered of course, especially Braeriach. No snow on Meall a' Buachaille (810m) at all today. Feshies and Monadhliath now looking normal snow cover for the time of year.

All of this means that the burns will be in full spate - wouldn't want to be crossing the Fords of Avon today.

Good luck to all for your final preparations.

Val

PS When I did my first Challenge(1997) this forum didn't exist, and I met nothing but friendship and kindness along the way. Well I must have enjoyed it, because I did 9 more and might not be finished yet. So if there are any firsttimers getting a negative picture of other challengers, don't worry, there all lovely in the flesh - well, nearly all....

Well, if the weather we have had today in Wales hits Scotland we will soon be debating what factor sun cream we are going to need on the Challenge and whether we will need a Tilley Hat or not. And remember folks, stay hydrated out there.