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Re: Wild camping restrictions in the Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park

I agree it's a complete shambles and some of the places shown on the photos are not where I would put my tent up. Just think what it would do to the groundsheet! I thought it was quite well publicised, though. I remember signing petitions. I think there was some suggestion about senior people in the LLTNP living near popular camping areas!

I have 2 problems with the restrictions:

1. I don't like any erosion of the Outdoor Access we have in Scotland.
2. Approaching from the hill, I would have no idea when I am entering a management zone.
3. I am unable to be that specific about where and when I will camp. Things happen!

Re: Wild camping restrictions in the Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park

Vanessa Ling
I thought it was quite well publicised, though.


I agree, Vanessa, the fact that these bylaws were coming in was very well publicised. However, the message was “You can still camp in these Zones but must buy a permit or stay in a campsite”, which I think was economical, to say the least.

Re: Wild camping restrictions in the Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park

I suspect that I'll be subject to a lot of disagreement but I cannot find myself becoming too exercised about these restrictions. They may well be limiting and the proposed penalties extremely draconian but I would make two related points about the plans.

Firstly, most of these spots are not where Challengers would wish to camp, being essentially the domain of car campers, close to roads and exceedingly public. Speaking personally, I would not find them appealing and would probably pay money not to have to pitch there!

Secondly, I think that one needs to consider the reasons why the bylaws have been introduced. If anyone has been in these areas over summer weekends, especially holiday ones, then the degree of anti-social behaviour in evidence is quite shocking. Large encampments of drunken and unpleasant males (and, sadly, it's always men...) making the environment distinctly threatening for anyone simply wishing to enjoy some peace and quiet. And the detritus which they leave behind is evident for some time to come - piles of empty cans and bottles and discarded festival tents are probably the least unpleasant items.

So, yes, the new bylaws represent a dilution of our wonderful access legislation, but what was happening was an arrogant abuse of that freedom and it's simply not reasonable to expect that the National Park Authority could have continued to turn a blind eye. As in so many areas of life, it's the selfish actions of a few which ruin things for the majority. If the new restrictions have some effect on counteracting those elements, I won't complain too much.

Having said that, if it turns out to be the thin end of a wedge, i'll be prepared to eat my words.

Colin

Re: Wild camping restrictions in the Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park

I agree with most of what has been said.

However, no one on the media has yet stated that these restrictions are slap bang on The West Highland Way, one of Scotland's National Trails.
This walk is not everyone's choice but many have a go at it even if they are not hardcore adventurers.The folk who finish it still get a sense of achievement.
Banning all wild camping on the shores of Loch Lomond is just giving the powers that be an easy fix.

The south shore of Loch Earn is also an area that suffers from the same problem.

After getting The Scottish Access legislation through it is a shame that it is being slowly eroded.

I have just read that Access rights do not extend to any form of motorised transport apart from people with a disability.

So why have a blanket ban when using the existing legislation should be sufficient to deal with the problem.

Requests from landed gentry to "not camp here" is also one of my pet hates.

Re: Wild camping restrictions in the Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park

Interesting point about the West Highland Way. As you say, most challengers wouldn't choose it. When I crossed it at Bridge of Orchy a couple of years ago, it was horribly crowded. However, everyone has to start somewhere and 13 years ago this month, it was my first solo multi-day backpack. It gave me confidence to venture further afield, so I will always have a soft spot for it.

Re: Wild camping restrictions in the Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park

Colin, I agree with you on several fronts. Certainly, most of these spots are not where Challengers would wish to camp. I have indeed walked through some of these places and I was also shocked by the litter and the other evidence anti-social behaviour. As you say, the selfish few.

However, all these issues, i.e. damage to trees, littering and drunken behaviour, are already illegal under existing criminal law. My personal suspicion is that these bylaws have been enacted in the hope that people will see the signs and simply go away without anyone having to do anything.

Currently, at least at the Firkin Point site discussed in the parkwatchscotland article (see link above), the Nation Park Authorities are asking for money for booked pitches that appear to totally unsuitable (at least one is covered in scrub) and have no water supply. Presumably, this is one of the 300 ‘new’ camping places that the National Park claims to have put in place. I wonder if people who have booked and paid for such a pitch would seek legal redress from the National Park.

Until I looked into this a couple of days ago, I also thought these bylaws were a reasonable way of stopping anti-social behaviour. However, now I am concerned not only by the precedent set and the disproportionate penalties but also by the way they were sold to the public, e.g. stating that a permit was required for wild camping within the zone, but neglecting to mention that “wild camping” meant camping on a booked pitch in one of a few specified areas.

Re: Wild camping restrictions in the Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park

Emma, I completely understand where you're coming from and have no difficulty in agreeing that there may be a cynical motive involved in the introduction of the bylaws. Sure, they probably are hoping that the mere introduction and the hassle involved for people will mean that they don't need to act further. And the provision of inadequate or poorly located pitches will deter people still further.

I also accept Sandy's point that there are people who will lose out on the West Highland Way. That's a tremendous shame and they are certainly being penalised unjustly. Yet I return to the point that what has gone on up until now is completely unacceptable and needs some sort of response. Whilst the approach may not be to our taste, at least the National Park are doing something. Unfortunately, where public bodies are concerned, it's the usual sledgehammer approach but I haven't heard of anyone coming up with alternative solutions. Voluntary bans or self-policing aren't going to work (do they ever, in any sphere?). At the moment, I avoid all of these problematic settings on summer weekends; there are places where I wouldn't even be willing to park my car. I conclude that the status quo simply isn't an option.

Emma, you're right that much of the anti-social behaviour is already against the law. Which brings us to the issue of policing. I wouldn't be willing to approach some of those groups. I heard of one lady who was pitched in a problem area and had the temerity to politely request that a group keep the noise level down. She was met with an extremely aggressive response and told in no uncertain terms where she could go. The telling factor with the new bylaws will be in the enforcement. Pity the poor National Park ranger who has to attempt an eviction of some of those unpleasant characters. I do wonder whether the police will deem it worthy of their attention. So the hope that people will be deterred from the start is perhaps no bad thing.

My hope is that the discreet and respectful backpacker will still be able to get away with a minimal impact approach, even within the bylaw zones. I'd imagine that officials can tell the difference between genuine and problem users and that the most we can normally expect is a ticking off or a request to move on. Surely the more draconian penalties will be held in reserve for serious offenders. Only time will tell if that hope is reflected in reality.

What a great shame that it comes to this at all.

Colin

Re: Wild camping restrictions in the Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park

Yes, indeed, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. If these measures are used sensibly to stop anti-social behaviour, I will be content. I have also had the experience of being surrounded by drunken campers (no, not Challengers!) who were behaving in an aggressive and abusive way. There was no one else there and I was too scared of possible repercussions to even pack up and leave - definitely the most scary experience I have ever had in the great outdoors.

Re: Wild camping restrictions in the Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park

Hi I'm with Colin on this. Whilst doing the W,H,W on the Loch Lomond stretch last year the amount of rubbish, bottles,cans,extra being left was much in evidence, it's sickening to see, so much as we don't like it something has to be done about it.

Re: Wild camping restrictions in the Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park

I protested in writing a couple of years ago when these proposals were under "consultation - ( which so often seems to mean advance information of the actions that will be taken). The proposals were well publicised through MCofS, JMT etc. and there were articles in TGO magazine as far as I recall.

I agree with just about all of the comments made on this Bulletin Board and will personally avoid the Camping management zones like the plague. I agree that the NP's provision is pathetic, and their means of booking for those who might wish to use official facilities is grossly impractical.

Contemplating a warm up walk on the Rob Roy Way made me scrutinise the map again, and I don't see too much of a problem on that route.

Re: Wild camping restrictions in the Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park

I am afraid that "derivative laws" such as this target the wrong people.

If the objection is to anti-social behaviour, then what is needed is bye-laws against anti-social behaviour and their enforcement, NOT by-laws that catch the perfectly respectable, law-abiding, social and sociable members of the outdoor community.

"What was your offence?"

"Wild camping without the correct permit."

Yes ... that is really going to deter anti-social behaviour.

But ... a precedent has now been set. A precedent which will doubtless encourage others to chance their arm. I predict that this is just the beginning. The Cairngorms will be next.