The word tolerance, if I am not wrong, comes from the Latin: tollit, which means to solve, to clarify. Tollit quaestio, which is a term often used by lawyers, signifies a issue that has been resolved.

This shows, I believe, how great is the weight of tolerance.

For me, one of the most relevant aspects of tolerance is to allow your fellowmen to speak, to say what he or she thinks, feels, wishes and expects. This aspect is so relevant that in the great majority of constitucional systems it became a fundamental liberty: freedom of speech.

We, Brazilians, value very much freedom of speech, because over twenty years, during the military regimen, we were not allowed freedom of speech. Those who expressed their thoughts and ideas were arrested, tortured, and killed.

Therefore, wherever I see people interferring with freedom of speech, I really get shocked and revolted.

This happens very often when discussions are going on, and one of the parties is more inflamed than the other, and some individuals who are not involved in the discussion, feel the right to tell them to stop, or to criticize one or the other for discussing. IMHO, this is an attempt to freedom of speech.

I feel that if they dislike what they are saying to each other, they should not read it or listen to it. To stop them from discussing is an attempt to freedom of speech that won´t help to alleviate the climate, because when emotions and thoughts are curbed, they tend to pile up and come out in a more explosive way later on.

It is essential to let people speak their mind out. We learn to understand them, if we take the trouble to read them, not only by their reactions, but by also reading between lines.

Lorena - I agree with what you say. Censorship of an individual's thoughts (unless those thoughts are outright flaming) is a terrible thing. The right to freedom of speech has been fought for over centuries and across cultures. It is perhaps the greatest gift we have. Many people still do not have this luxury. To have our thoughts taken away and put in the trash can is a shock to put it mildly. It is a violation of our freedom of speech and is wholly undemocratic.

I can understand that if a person is flaming and using terrible or hurtful language to another person, then their thoughts may need to be deleted. But a person or persons who post their valid and honest opinions in a calm and considered way should not just have their thoughts wiped out just because someone doesn't like them. Where would we all be if governments reverted to this? You remember how awful it felt in your own country when this was happening. I've met people from Russia who have told me this too. No one person should have the power to do this. At least without prior notice. It is upsetting to say the least.

Long may people fight for this freedom - very few things in the world are worth more.

Spy, thanks for your comments. In order to continue with the subject, I will add a few others to my initial ones.

I feel the need to say that by being tolerant a person is not supposed to accept wrong doings or abuse of power from others. This is not being tolerant, this is being irresponsible.

For instances, if you see that a citizen is being stolen and battered, would you tolerate? If you see that an innocent child is being abused and beaten by their parents, would you accept it?

Please note I am not making these questions directly to Spy, because I know very well she would never accept and tolerate such actions. Like me, she would be revolted. I am speaking in general terms, in order to establish the boundaries of tolerance.

(((( Lorena )))) and ((((( Spy ))))),

Lately I have felt that whenever I spoke up there was instantly someone there to say..'Enough'...and someone to tell me that I am lacking in tolerance, compassion and forgiveness. This has certainly caused me great frustration and it has also hurt me greatly.

I feel that posts that contain abusive language and that are written only to destroy should be edited or deleted. An example would be the attacks made by the plagiarist we all know of. I do not feel that posts in which people are simply engaging in a discussion that may become heated should be deleted. And I also feel that heated discussions should be allowed to continue. Those who find these discussion upsetting, those who feel they should not occur can simply stay out of the topics in which they are taking place. It baffles me why people who find these discussions too upsetting for them feel the need to click on the topic to enter it and then feel the need to complain that the discussion is still going on.

The situation that just took place that involved the deletion of many posts was not a normal occurrence. The person who deleted the posts has never been known to do this type of thing before even when posts are written about her personally that contain unkind things. I know that great stress and also depression factored into what occurred. I know for a fact that this person does not believe in deleting posts just because she can. She feels that is wrong and she also feels badly about what has taken place and has said so.

I would also like to say again that the person who deleted the posts did NOT say that those posts should not be on the board they were originally posted on. She told me that so many of those posts were excellent and she hoped that the writers would repost them in a new topic. I know that it is difficult to take the time to re-write and re-post those deleted posts and now may not be the right time to do this due to the current volatile nature of the board this occurred on, but later it might be good to have those posts re-posted.

I feel strongly that we can get past what has happened.

I also hope that we can get past that, SL. It turns out that the person we are very fond of ends up having to carry the burden for others who lack respect for what we say, do and think. I understand it is an exceptional situation.

Other situations are not exceptional. They are happening too often, and we need to take a deep breath, give ourselves some time and some rest.

Your efforts to bring peace, to make everyone feel comfortable are admirable, SL, and I thank you for that.

I have just spoken to KG at MR truthfully and honestly about how I feel on the subject of deleting people's thoughts and the matter of freedom of speech. I did so as a friend because as a friend I feel she has the right to know how I feel about what happened. To pretend it wasn't serious would be a lie. But friends should be able to speak honestly to each other as a matter of respect for one another. Friendship is not just about being 'friendly' - it is about being able to communicate on a deeper level. I do respect KG - enough to be honest with her about how I feel. Only friends can do this.

Spy, I totally agree with you. For me it was terrible to have to say to a good friend, a person who always supported me in the most difficult occasions what I thought about deleting posts. Besides, a person who is an excellent moderator and who was facing a hell of a situation. But I felt if I didn´t say anything I wouldn´t be respecting her. Some may have interpreted my opinion wrongly, but the fact that I disagreed doesn´t mean at all I am not at her side, I am not respecting her work or her as an individual. On the contrary, my consideration for her is enormous, and I think there is too much pressure upon her.

SL is facing a very hard time too, being the victim of abusive emails. Tolerance must stop at this level. No one has the right to send other people abusive emails, taking advantage of what they read about their lives and experiences. This is plain shameful. I hope a solution will be found to put a stop to this action.

So do I Lorena.

((( SPY ))) & ((( Lorena )))

I agree that friends should be able to speak honestly and frankly with each other.

There have been times that I have disagreed with our friend. One of those times I was deeply hurt by something and said so. I do understand when some issues hit one hard and when one neeeds to state that they feel the action taken is wrong. However, I finally got past the matter by remembering the fairness that our friend had always shown in the past and by remembering why I value our friendship. I also realize I am not perfect and that I can easily make a mistake, too. This does not mean that I feel I should not have told her that I disagreed with her however. I would do the same thing today.

Right now what I find disturbing are the comments being posted about the 'bickering' that keeps occurring and about there being more important things in life to spend one's time on. Yes, there are very important matters in life to deal with, but our lives are not just made up of the 'big' issues. Some of the smaller issues are important to address and straighten out. What is happening is not 'bickering' between two people. I certainly had no desire for any of this to happen and I do not spend my time bickering with anyone.

I feel the current matter under discussion must now be taken care of once and for all. This type of thing will continue because the person engaged in it delights in stirring things up and shocking others. I would have been happy if this person had returned to the board and left all past matters in the past. But that is not what this person chose to do. None of this is easy. It is very difficult.

SL, I guess Spy said in one of her posts there are matters which can´t be taken lightly, and again I entirely agree with her. I see no bickering between you and anyone else. What I notice is a very serious issue in which you had to take a firm position. Why should you let yourself be offended and systematically bullied without reacting accordingly? How would you be able to look yourself at the mirror, or to rest your head on the pillow, if you didn´t?

And you reacted accordingly, not insulting anyone, neither accusing somebody without due reason. You had to come and state: Look, this is happening, me and other members of the board are receiving abusive messages. Everything, which is written in the sharing thread, is being used to offend people, and to put them into an embarrassing situation. Heavens, you had to warn everybody to be cautious.

Besides, small issues, as people generally tend to define, can easily turn into big issues and cause a lot of harm, if we close an eye to them. And employing a word often used by KG, I say, Baby, this is no small issue. Go on, state your opinion. I said to you once, the ones who don´t respect your opinion, don´t deserve you. And stay there, giving support to KG and to others who need your help. Be what you really are without fear, and with pride and honor. I trust you.

Well, it has been made very clear to me that I should never have spoken out about PR at MR in the first place. I won't be saying any more. Lorena - you above all understand about the need to speak up when things are unjust. Thankyou, for just being you. You know I love you.
SL - I hope very soon now TPTB eradicate the person who has been tormenting you in such a viscious way and that MR returns to the wonderful place it always was before that person came to the board. I'll be glad to see that happen.

I wish the best for everyone.

Tolerance! I decided when things starting getting
nasty on MR that it was time to maybe say nothing, so
that's what I did; however, I had noticed who was the
one stirring things up some time ago & feel that she
should have been banned for good after some of the
things she had done, & making things personal,from
someone like her, really did it for me. I think the
girl needs "help" but not on the board, from a Dr. who can actually help her although, it would take years to do so, I believe. Enuf for now, actually said more than I meant to. As to deletions of the posts, they should have been posted to another thread
by the writers themselves. KG does a fabulous job
as moderator of MR.

Tuesday evening there was a huge amount of people coming and going posting at the board. There were two main discussions going on. One concerned the announcement that the moderator was most probably stepping down and the other was that the person who caused so much turmoil was banned.

Later that evening someone respected by all members of the board posted. She doesn't post often anymore but did Tuesday night. She was very angry. Part of her remarks concerned those that had received the emails and pms from the person banned. She said they should have just been ignored and deleted and not mentioned to the board. She also mentioned those that caused problems for the moderator...some of whom she said supported the moderator, but whose reactions to the person banned created problems. I felt like I was being hit very hard when I read her post. Many wrote posts of appreciation for what was written.

The emails and pms from the person banned had been kept quiet prior to this week. What did keeping quiet about those messages accomplish? The abusive person who sent them was not being asked to leave despite all she did. Board members were leaving. But apparently I am blamed now for part of that. Would all of those people have been on the board Tuesday night if the banned person was still there?

I am deeply depressed about being partly blamed now for the moderator wishing to step down. I feel that I was expected to remain silent no matter what was posted about me on the board or what was sent to me via email or pm. Now I wonder what it was all for...the years posting there...all of it.

SL, again I understand how you felt. In the beginning I also imagined I was being addressed as one of the troublemakers. It seems people jump to conclusions, without reading messages carefully in the first place.

However, after reading the message of that person, I came to the conclusion she was speaking in general terms only, not meaning anyone in particular. When she did, she was quite specific. Therefore, in my view, she just gave an opinion, a more heated one maybe, but, in any case, generic, as how certain situations should be handled. It doesn´t mean that I agree though, but again this is a question of opinion.
She may be right, and I may be entirely wrong.

Since, in general, there is an overall tendency to jump to conclusions, I must explain that by handling certain situations, I am referring to how one should deal with in the case of undersired and aggressive emails, of harassment through electronic correspondence. These situations must be reported. It comes to such a stage, that it becomes literally impossible to deal with those messages in private. If I were continuously harassed, I would do the same as you did, SL.

As I said, tolerance has limits. No one is supposed to tolerate harassment. Recently, in my country, a law was enacted to prevent moral harassment.

Last but not least, SL, don´t ever think you are the cause, if Kristen eventually decides not to be a moderator anymore. If she had that opinion, she would have told you so. She is woman enough to tell everything that bothers her, and one notices she appreciated your support.

What really matters is KG´s opinion concerning you, the others are irrelevant.

SL - I agree with Lorena that the person you are referring to was talking in general terms. I myself agreed with alomst everything she said. I say almost[/i] because I did react to some of her words about ignoring the abuse by saying that the admins were not prepared to take a stand against the abuser. Some things just have to be said.
Actually I think it was me[/i] and not you to whom she may have been directing those remarks. I started this whole mess with my original post in the now 'deleted posts' thread. You only added your thoughts after[/i] I had upset the apple cart by speaking out about the condoning of the abuser by people at MR. Don't feel badly about it. You HAD to say something. I said something because nothing was being done by the admins, but now it has: the abuser has gone. Your life will be SO much better now, so celebrate! Cheer up and go back to MR and move on. Do what you always do - invite everyone for a drink in The Lounge!
I STILL maintain my position on free speech and the deletion of posts and have restated my position to the moderator there tonight. We are ALL entitled to our opinion and should be free to do so as long as it's not in a derogatory or insulting manner. I don't believe my deleted post was either of those things.

I hope peace and calm will return to MR from now on and I hope a valuable lesson has been learned about the right to speak out. Sometimes emailing Admins just doesn't work and a tougher stance is needed to affect the changes necessary........

The person who wrote the post that we have referred to told me via email last night that she felt that my actions current and past regarding the banned person hurt the board and myself. Her view is that it should have been kept quiet and only discussed with the admins. She pointed out the comments of the moderator who asked why the admins and mods had not been contacted!!

Today the person who posted exchanged emails again with me and said that she felt all the board had let down the moderator. I told her I did not agree. I also told her that many had written to the admins about the problem presented by the banned poster and their emails fell on deaf ears.

I do not feel it is right to make a sweeping judgment of a whole board full of people especially when one does not have all the facts. I felt the post was full of anger, something none of us needed last night after all that had just occurred. It should have been a relaxing night instead of one where someone angry showed up to tell us how we had failed the moderator.

The job of a moderator is to moderate. We wouldn't need moderators if there were never any disputes or problems. I don't wish any moderator to have to deal with a lot of stress, but the fact is it is part of moderating a large board.

I am tired of people suddenly appearing and either telling others they must be silent or telling them how they have failed. I did the best I could, but now I am finished. I wish them all the best. I hope they can restore the board to the way it once was. Two people who were causing distress to the board are now gone, so the job of the moderator should be a much easier one.

SL, you are not going to leave the board just because a person has a different opinion, are you? Why should her opinion weigh so much for you? And why should it be considered as the overall opinion? It is her opinion, the way she see things, not necessarily the way everybody sees them. You have lots of people that enjoy you, that appreciate you there. Why deprive them from your company? Think of Antje, think of the Brazilian Babes who like you so much. Are you going to leave them alone? And your friend KG? You are going to make her sad if you are not there, being SL, saying whatever you think.

Say okay, you think things should be dealt in private, all right. I think differently, matters that affect a whole group, must be treated in common.

Don´t let the judgment of one person affect you. And don´t think, because others find marvelous what she writes, they are against you. They just like what she writes, the style maybe, or maybe they consider her a buddy, or maybe because they see in her a reflection of themselves, there are so many motives for people to react. It has nothing to do with you personally. You are another individual, another universe with different qualities.

To you I say in French: Vive la difference!!!! Long Life Difference. Imagine if everybody would think alike? How boring the world would be.

((((((((( Lorena )))))))))) Thank you for your kind words.

I very much respected the person who wrote the post and that is why I feel very saddened by her comments. There are others who feel as she does, too. They feel as though I damaged the board as much as the banned person did. It's very depressing.

I will probably continue to update the LFN TV schedule for the members of MR and also post the Chris Heyn book updates. If I just bring in information and do nothing else at MR, then perhaps things will work out.

SL - I'll say this again - it was ME who most of those comments were aimed at. Read the moderators comments to me and you will see that. It's not you - you said all those things because you were being abused. I wrote what I did because all the emailing in the world was not going to have any effect - that much was obvious because the problems with the banned poster had been going on for MONTHS and all that ever happened (after emailing the Admins) was that she was banned for TWO WEKS. How INEFFECTUAL is that? Unfortunately it DID take my comments in the deleted posts thread to cause such a huge board fight that FINALLY someone took notice and banned the offensive person.

Don't feel badly. The harsh words were for me. Go back and enjoy yourself there, knowing that the banned poster is gone for good.

(((( SPY ))))

I feel that my reaction to the post was justified based on my discussion with the poster via email. She had every right to express her opinion. And what she wrote was very much appreciated by many. The post made me realize I have to make a change.

Spy, again I agree with you. You see I don´t believe in provisory banning. If, by some serious reason, I would be forced to ban someone from this small board, I would do it on a definitive basis.

If a person behaves in such a way that only an extreme measure like banning, which for me is similar to a death penalty, becomes the only way out to solve a problem, then why kill the person twice? If the banning had been definitive, much pain would have been spared, to her and to the others.

I am taking the liberty to express my opinion here, instead of through private emails or somewhere else. This is my home, this is a place I built where every poster has the freedom to express what they think, without being judged for its views. To disagree is not to judge, once one disagrees with fundament and respect for the other.

So, I sincerely think, Spy, if you were the one addressed in the message mentioned by SL, it was utterly unfair, because then it was fore judgement, and not just a well intentioned opinion in defence of others.

I didn´t say my opinion about banning, because I am not a moderator, I am not an administrator, and this is a matter that belongs to their sphere, not to mine. Besides, I feel very uncomfortable about suggesting a capital punishment. It is one of my weaknesses maybe, I am not a perfect person. However, once a capital punishment is the only way a community can go only living, it should be carried out once and forever.

If anyone disagrees with my opinion, before jumping to conclusions,feel at ease to say it here. I am only going to discuss this matter in my own board.