Hi Don,

If I knew who caused this problem, I'd !

I hope you will try again and wish I was computer savvie enough to help, but I'm not.

Today I refereed at a junior competition (0 to 8 hcp) and the following incident happened:

On the Local Rules sheet it said that all roads and paths were integral parts of the course (not my decision!).
A boy's ball ended up on one of these artificially covered paths (grit and broken up rubble) and he wrongly thought he could take a drop in accordance with Rule 24-2b. Obviously he hadn't read the LR's for the competition. He picked up his ball and dropped it in accordance with R.24-2b.
Then he was correctly told by a novice RO that the path was an integral part of the road. He then asked if he could declare his ball unplayable and the RO said "yes".
He made his declaration and played the dropped ball as it laid and added 1 penalty stroke to his score, but was his procedure and the 1 penalty stroke correct?

All the details about the incident are here, but after reading your responses, I have a follow up question.

Johanna

Where do you play golf Toxandria, the Netherlands

Johanna

I'll have a quick go at this before I have to go to work and I'll look forward to reading some other responses when I get home!

The player breached R18-2 when proceeding under the inapplicable R24-2b. Since he did not replace it he incurred a 2SP. Or is it 2SP for a breach of the local rule with the applicable rule being R24?

There are things to be learned in D18-2a/12.5 and D34-3/6 I'm sure but I've run out of time for now.

Good question!

DC

HI Johanna,

It is my understanding,when a player lifts a ball in play,and proceeds under a rule that permits lifting, there is no penalty under R18-2.

The player,can rectify under R20-6. However,in this instance that was not the case. As a result the player played from a wrong place, and incurs 2PS. If a serious breach, must rectify accordingly.
It does not IMO sound like a case of SB in this instance.

I would also , penalise the player a further 2PS,under R8-1, for seeking advice from the RO.

The player young as he is,must be made to realise if he/she breaches a rule or asks or gives advice, will be penalised under the rules.


Regards, Ron.

The boy asked the RO about the rules didn't he? He did not ask for advice.

HI DC,

I feel just as bad. However, see D8-1/16.

Regards, Ron.

Sorry Ron, I have to disagree with you on that Decision.

According to Johanna's original post

He then asked if he could declare his ball unplayable and the RO said "yes".

This is very different to the boy saying something to the RO along the lines of "In your opinion should I declare this ball unplayable".

The way I read JC's post the boy was asking about his options on how to proceed.

Ron
This is definitely not 8-1/16.

By analogy to D18-2a/3 it's a 2SP.

HI Doug & DC

Perhaps I am being too harsh in my interpretation or in error.
.
The player and his caddie is responsible for knowing the rules. R6-1.

It could be argued the players choice "could be influenced" by the inadequate response of the RO.

However,the definition on advice states in part,"information on the rules"..etc, so perhaps in this context I may have been too harsh.It is, after all "information on the rules".

Regards, Ron.

Hi Ron

You wrote, "The player and his caddie is responsible for knowing the rules. R6-1."

IMHO this rule is saying, 'if you get a penalty as a result of not knowing the rules then you have no-one to blame but yourself.' However, in the competition Johanna describes, ROs are available to fill the knowledge gap.

We are straying from JC's original question and I'm expecting her to rein us in any minute.

Cheers

DC

David,

As it is now five minutes to midnight I reserve my restraining words till tomorrow.

I'm off to

Johanna

Where do you play golf Toxandria, the Netherlands

Hi all,

There was nothing wrong with the youngster's asking the RO if he could declare the dropped ball unplayable, it was the answer that was wrong. What the RO should have said is that he first should replace the ball on the path, and then declare it unplayable.
Apparently he only added one penalty stroke to his score, but that should have been 2 penalty strokes under Rule 18-2 (the penalty statement underneath Rule 18).
Afterwards we discussed if the Committee was allowed to turn the 1 penalty into 2 ps before the competition is closed. The answer is "yes" according to D.34-3/1.

Frankly I couln't blame the youngster for the mix-up. I never understand why a Committee in charge of the Competition declares an artificially surfaced path as an integral part of the course, when during Rules lessons novice players learn that those paths are immovable obstructions.

When I asked afterwards why that LR was in force, the answer I received was that if a ball ended up on one of the paths, it was the result of a poor stroke and that the player shouldn't receive a free drop!
At that rate you could declare most structures/buildings on the course integral parts of the course! I have never seen a thunder and lightning shelter in the middle of a fairway!

Johanna

Where do you play golf Toxandria, the Netherlands

Hi Johanna,
Thank you for your full reply.

D18-2a/3 is very similar in it's content and the answer given.

However, my confusion and hence the answer I gave was based of the opening paragraph to D34-3/6.

It states in part," When a player proceeds under a rule that does not apply to his situation and then makes a stroke, the committee must determine the Rule to apply in order to give a ruling basesd on the players action".
This is just how the player proceeded in your question.

For the moment,I freely admit I cannot see the difference in reasoning between a 2SP under R18 or a 2SP under playing from a wrong place.
But I will persevere and hopefully the light may go on.
Once again many thanks.
Regards, Ron.

Hi Ron,

You say:

For the moment,I freely admit I cannot see the difference in reasoning between a 2SP under R18 or a 2SP under playing from a wrong place.

If you read the wording in Rule 20-7, "Playing from Wrong Place" it says under 20-7c:
If a competitor makes a stroke from a wrong place, he incurs a penalty of two strokes under the applicable Rule.
The applicable Rule in my Rules question falls under Rule 18-2 - ball moved by the player. If replaced he incurs 1 penalty stroke, if not replaced 2 penalty strokes.

Regards,
Johanna

Where do you play golf Toxandria, the Netherlands

HI Johanna,

Thanks for replying.

If the player had replaced his ball on the path after lifting it, and then declared it unplayable, assuming he incurred no more penalties in his playing of the hole, he would have to add 2PS to his score for the hole.ie 1PS under R18-2a and 1 PS under R28. No question of an applicable rule,because there is no playing from a wrong place, assuming the player proceeded correctly under R28.

Hopefully, that is correct.

As he did NOT replace his ball, he incurs 2PS under R18-2. I understand that.

In my twisted logic,which seems to be different from everyone else,if I understand your reply, another way of answering the question is to say, the player incurs a 2SP for playing from a wrong place and the applicable rule is R18-2.
Which is infact the way I reasoned and answered originally, but failed to mention the applicable rule.

The same answer/reasoning would also apply in the case of D18-2a/3, had the player not replaced his ball.

Hopefully that is also correct.
Many thanks for staying with the question.
Regards, Ron.

Good evening Ron,

You've got it !

Johanna

Where do you play golf Toxandria, the Netherlands

HI Johanna,

A very very good evening to you too.
The light has come on. Hallelujah.
I do appreciate your patience.
Many thanks.
Regards, Ron.