Hi ewveryone,

For my understandind / confirmation, R20-7 implies to me, that if a player becomes aware he has played from a wrong place, and may have committed a serious breach,he must complete the hole by playing a second ball dropped or placed in accordance with the rules.

What penalties if any are incurred by a player having become aware he has not only played from a wrong place, but may have committed a serious breach, decides, BEFORE he has completed the play of the hole, to correct his error by lifting his ball played from the wrong place and drops and completes the hole with that ball. Thanks, Ron.

Hi Ron

My understanding is that the ruling of whether or not a serious breach has occurred is down to the committee. So, if it is ruled by the committee that the breach was not a serious one and that therefore the player should have played out the ball that he played from the wrong place, but he has not done so, then he is DQd.
If the committee rules that there was a serious breach then the player, having put a ball into play in accordance with the rules just adds a 2SP to his score with that ball for playing from the wrong place.

Hi Ron,

Have a look at Decision 1-4/12.

Earlier this year I read a little quiz question asking how many penalty strokes someone could possibly incur playing a par-4 holes in 4 strokes, plus the penalties. Somebody came to a grand total of 94 penalty strokes (if I remember correctly!) but Don may remember the details.

Johanna

Where do you play golf Toxandria, the Netherlands

Johanna and DC,
Thank you both very much for your speedy responses to my post. Quite an astonishing answer to your quiz Johanna. I have visions of the writer,assuming he was a RO, turning up at a competition in his deerstalker,spy glass, plus fours and pipe, relishing the ensuing competition with an evil glint in his eye.

I am trying top find an appropriate principle in D1-4/12. Any suggestions Johanna?

DC, my difficulty is with the wording, ie "He MUST play out the hole with a second ball....etc"

The way I read it (hence my need for confirmation)was, the player HAD to complete the hole with the ball played from the WP, and then replay with a
second ball correctly, as per note 2.

So I wondered what would happen, re note 2, in a case where a second ball was not played, but corrected with the OB before completion with it.

Is it possible to be in a situation where both balls are deemed not count, assuming a serious breach was committed? Is the competitor then suject to disqualification?
Thanks, Ron.

Hi Ron

Imagine a player hits a ball 200 yards and when he gets to it he finds it is OOB. He drops a ball where he stands under 27-1. But this is a serious breach of 27-1 and as such needs to be corrected. What would be the point of playing out the hole with that ball? The player must now correct the error. IMO this is such an obvious SB then perhaps the committee does not even need to be informed.

The wording "He MUST play out the hole with a second ball....etc" IMO tells the player what to do if he is unsure which way the committee will rule on whether a SB has occurred or not. He could just take his chance on DQ.

You said: "So I wondered what would happen, re note 2, in a case where a second ball was not played, but corrected with the OB before completion with it." It would help if you could make up an example here for us to discuss.

You said: "Is it possible to be in a situation where both balls are deemed not count, assuming a serious breach was committed? Is the competitor then subject to disqualification?" If the situation that brought about the SB is not properly corrected then it is possible that both balls will not count and DQ is the inevitable result.
e.g. Player plays from wrong place A and plays out hole. Player believes SB may have occurred so plays a second ball from place B and plays out hole. However, let's assume that place B was also a wrong place and that the player should have corrected his mistake of playing at place A by playing from place C. Neither of the balls count. Furthermore, the rules do not seem to allow playing a third ball if the player thinks that he might have made another SB by playing from point B. If they did this could go on ad infinitum.

Cheers DC

HI DC,

Thanks very much for staying with my question.I appreciate it.

To wrap it up, I think perhaps I was using "must"in the wrong context.

1. If a player is in doubt, his only way forward is to play a second ball correctly, similar to R3-3, but let the committee decide which score is to count in his score for the hole.

2. A player need not complete the play of the hole first if he realises, he may not only have played from a wrong place,but also committed a possible serious breach, can correct his error immediately, by abandoning, or effectively putting his OB out of play, by say, proceeding under stroke and distance.

In this case, I cannot see the need for the player to inform the committee, as there is only "one ball", and nothing to compare or discuss. Do you agree?

3. Finally, if both balls are deemed by a committee not to count, and as you say the rules are silent on a third ball played,is disqualification the only answer?

Thanks again. I look forward to your comments.

Regards, Ron.

Ron

1. I agree there is an analogy with R.3-3. In R.20-7 the committee calls which ball counts.

2. I agree again. This does assume that the common or garden golfer knows what he’s doing here. I think on reflection that perhaps a committee should be informed of the situation if a player is in anyway unsure about how he has proceeded.

3. I can’t see an alternative to DQ. The player does not have a score for the hole at which the breach occurs.

Cheers,

DC

HI DC,

Many thanks for your interest and participation in my question.

Hopefully, as a direct result of our exchanges,and others,it may be instrumental in helping viewers to the forum amongst others with similar doubts, on how to proceed in playing from a wrong place under R20-7.

Regards, Ron.

Hi, Ron and DC,

Two things that may be worth your consideration:

a. If a player becomes convinced that the play was from a wrong place with serious breach, then as DC said, I think there is no need to play out with that ball, though the player may have to take his chances with the committee if there is a dispute. Once it is lifted it becomes some other thing (e.g. a second ball) and may be dropped or placed or teed in the correct spot, whatever the rule requires.

b. I can see nothing in Rule 20-7 preventing a player from playing a third ball, if that is required in order to correct the previous errors. The second paragraph of rule 20-7c refers to a second ball, but I think we should read that the same way we read about successive provisionals, etc.

HI Paul,

Thanks for joining the discussion.

The rule is silent re playing more than two balls, and in the absence of any such prohibition,a third ball could be played if the player so wished.

Your analogy to playing more than one PB, is certainly appropriate.

The only concern I would have, if a third ball is played, is a possible penalty under R6-7.

Thanks for your comments. Regards, Ron.

Ron and Paul

Check out D.3-3/10. IMO there is analogy to the wrong place situation we are discussing.

Both R.20-7 and R.3-3 refer to playing "two ball" or "a second ball" not just "another" ball.

HI DC,

Nice one . I would go along with that.
That just about wraps it up conclusively. 2 balls and no more.

Regards, Ron.

DC and Ron,

Be careful about analogies. Rule 3-3 is clear. But Rule 20-7 is not about doubt as to procedure, just about doubt regarding the correct place.

Rule 20-7 says in part, "If a competitor becomes aware that he has played from a wrong place and believes that he may have committed a serious breach, he must, before making a stroke on the next teeing ground, play out the hole with a second ball dropped or placed in accordance with the Rules."

If the player fumbles about and plays the second ball from another wrong place, with another serious breach, he must still, somehow, proceed in accordance with the Rules, specifically with Rule 20-7. And let's hope his arithmetic is working!

And, Ron, I don't think a player can be penalised under 6-7 if he is smartly getting on with his game. Even if he causes delay, it can't be "undue" if the Rules require him to proceed in that way.

Kind regards,

Paul

HI Paul,

In general terms I agree with you concerning the "undue" aspect. However, from a practical standpoint, howmany fumbles or attempts to play from the correct place are you going to allow?

In DC's reply to me timed at 11.52pm, he says "it could go on ad infinitum". He has a point.

Remember, the player/s is oblidged to conform "within reason" to pace of play guidelines set out as well.

I would suggest that R20-7c is not all that unclear.

R3-3 states in part,"A player may without penalty complete the the play of the hole with 2 balls".

R20-7c says in part,"A player MUST before making s a stroke on the next teeing ground, play out the hole with a second ball".

IMO, doubt exists in priciple in both rules.
In the former a player is allowed play 2 balls,if he is doubtful how to proceed, and in the latter,doubt exists not only for possibly playing from a wrong place, but may have committed a serious breach as well.

Paul, regarding analogies, we are constantly referring to similar situations in trying to establish the correct result. I canot see any reason why that should not be the case in associating or applying D3-3/10 with R20-7c. That is a personal view.

Regards, Ron.