Player in greenside bunker catches ball too well and it flies over the green into an area of thick rough. His ball now lies further from the hole than its previous position in the bunker. Player announces a provisional ball, drops in the bunker and plays to the green.

Is this provisional ball in play because he has hit it from a point closer to the hole than the original ball lies?

I know I must be missing something here but I can't see what at the moment.

DC,

Interesting. The words in Rule 27-2a could perhaps be polished more, to preserve the distinction between "a ball played provisionally" and "a provisional ball".

I'm sure the intention is that the ball declared under that rule does not actually start to be provisional until a stroke has been made at it.

Totally agree Paul. There's a shortfall in the wording, isn't there?

Similar scenario. Player tees off, hits the tee markers and the ball rebounds behind him into a area of heavy rough. Can you play a provisional ball in this instance?

DC,

If the original ball may be lost outside a water hazard or be out of bounds, a ball may be played provisionally under Rule 27-2a, regardless of what direction the original ball took.

But does that provisional ball become the ball in play because it has been played from a point nearer the hole than the original ball - that is the question!

HI DC,
If I may join the discussion.
Provided you have correctly announced your intention to play a PB as required by R27-2,it is not inplay until it is played from a place where the OB is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than the OB. In your case that point is where the ball lay on the PG.
It assumes of course that the OB is not found before you play your second stroke with the PB, which then becomes the ball in play, from the PG,and your OB is lost. Regards, Ron.

Hi Ron

I agree that the intention of the rule is almost certainly as you describe. However, the shot with the ball dropped in the bunker (my first example) is a shot with a provisional ball that lies nearer the hole than where the OB now lies. Following he wording in the Definition of "Lost Ball" this 'provisional ball' is in play. What you suggest can only be true it the dropped ball does not become a provisional ball until actually hit, which would make the next shot with the provisional ball the 'shot of reference' under the "Lost Bal" definition. So perhaps the question here is when does a provisional ball become a provisional ball. I would argue a ball gains its status as a provisional ball as soon as it is announced as such by the player. I can't see the rules tell me otherwise.
Nice to hear from you. Hope all's well.

DC

DC,

I announce a provisional, an Optima 1. I then drop it into my pocket and get out my scarred old Titleist 2 and show it to my marker.

What is the status of the Optima now? And, extending the logic, what is also the status of the Titleist in my hand?

They are equipment, in my opinion, and not yet provisionally in play.

HI DC,

I am well, thank you.

Looks suspiciously like a "marathon" in the making. Good. Hopefully not "another dog with a bone situation." We will see.

Having said that, Michael will probably be joining us.
And why not. The more the merrier.

Lets start at the beginning.

These are my opinions.

The Provisional Ball.(PB). A PB is NOT in play when either dropped or teed or by declaration.(R20-6). It becomes the PB, ONLY when a stroke is made at it, but more importantly, IT IS NOT IN PLAY, not yet.

A PB is played provisionally for a ball that may be lost or OOB, and with the provision, that it could either become the BIP or abandoned, by playing the OB or picking up the PB. Hence, the name Provisional Ball.

The lost ball def. I assume you are referring to section (c). I do not see anything at all in this section that makes me want to change my opinion.

The main thrust,however, of your question is centered on playing nearer the hole.

The rules only require a player to play another ball "as nearly as possible at the spot from which the OB was played". R27-1 and R27-2.

If a player for example played from the tee (A) to (B)and decided it may be lost or OOB, plays a PB fro (A) to(C).

The significant distance to the hole is determined by B&C. ie which is the nearer.(what the rule refers to).

If C is nearer the hole, and the OB is not found before a stroke is made at the PB, the PB becomes the BIP.

In your two scenarios, in both cases it is up to the player to decide how he will proceed. Remember, it will still cost him a penaty stroke, if the PB is selected in either scenario.

The player,IMO in both scenarios is proceding correctly under the rules. ie Playing a PB from the bunker, and from the tee.

WRT the player on the tee, are you suggesting his only option is to play the OB as it lay?, what if he cannot find it? where must he play from? or, put a ball into play from where the OB may be,(Wrong Place) or play three from the tee? (Wrong Place) etc.

That is my understanding of the scenarios, and the relevant interprtaion of it.
Regards, Ron.

Hi everyone,
Thanks for the endorsment Ron, and since my name has been introduced I might as well stick in my two pennarth.
It is a great question.
A PB is a time saving device. The ball in question, even though further away, must still be relatively close to the green.
What I would suggest is to ascertain whether the OB is actually lost first, and then return to the bunker if needs be.
Sorry I can't muster anything more inspiring for such a good question.
Cheers guys,
Michael.

You’ve all been busy whilst I was at work!

Paul – If you do not announce a provisional ball before you play it, it is not a provisional ball. But you know that. What I suggest is that in combination with the announcement, the very moment you make a stroke at a ball under 27-2 that ball becomes a provisional ball. At what other point can the provisional ball become such? What I am also suggesting is that, in both my scenarios, at that very moment the Definition of “Lost Ball” (c) makes that provisional ball the ball in play. However, look at my comment at the end of this post.

Michael – What you suggest is probably the sensible thing to do. There will not be a great time saving involved because we are not talking about huge distances. Nevertheless, the option to play the provisional ball is there if the OB may be lost or OOB so we must continue the debate!

Ron – I agree that under normal circumstances a PB is not in play until 27-2b kicks in and yes I am referring to section (c) of the “Lost Ball” definition. I don’t disagree with most of your post.
WRT the tee situation I was not suggesting his only option was to find the OB. He can of course play from the tee again.


The answer to this lies in when the provisional ball acquires its status as such. I would be happy with being able to read the rule as e.g.

“Once a player has announced his intention, a ball subsequently played under rule 27-2 becomes a provisional ball only after the player has made a stroke at it”

I've been thinking about this some more and I'm still not happy with this.
A quote frm the rule:
"The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball."

"I am going to play a provisional ball. There it is laying in the bunker now I've dropped it. I'm going to hit that provisional ball." I hit the provisional ball but it is closer to the hole than where my OB is. The PB must be the ball in play now.

HI DC,
I am a bit confused.

In your post to Paul, (re tee-markers) timed at 1.32, you ask the question, "can you play a PB in this situation"?.

In your reply to my post you state," He can of course play from the tee again".

It begs the question, What is the status of the ball he is playing?, and how does the player proceed?

With respect DC, I am not clear how you are advocating the player should proceed.

I agree with Michael it is a good question, and gives me, and others the opporunity to discuss the application of the rules in a greater depth, and understanding. Hopefully, on that we can at least agree.

Regards, Ron.

The confusion seems to have arisen due to my wording in my post to Paul where I said, "Can you play a provisional ball in this instance?" Let me try to explain myself more clearly.

A player hits a ball and it is 100% in a water hazard. He announces a provisional ball and plays it. But we know that a provisional ball is not allowed in this instance and therefore the PB is now the BIP.

A player tees off and his ball hits the tee markers and rebounds behind him into an area of heavy rough. He announces a provisional ball and plays it from the tee. BUT because a PB becomes the BIP when played from a point neared the hole than where the OB is likely to be this shot from the tee was never going to be a PB. That is what I meant in my question to Paul.

Hi David,

You say:
A player tees off and his ball hits the tee markers and rebounds behind him into an area of heavy rough. He announces a provisional ball and plays it from the tee. BUT because a PB becomes the BIP when played from a point neared the hole than where the OB is likely to be this shot from the tee was never going to be a PB. That is what I meant in my question to Paul.

I don't think that statement is correct, because a player may always play a PB if the original may be lost or OOB.

It is also generally accepted that a ball may never be dropped closer to the hole than where the original ball has come to rest, but Decision 28/8 proves otherwise.

Johanna

Where do you play golf Toxandria, the Netherlands

I bit late in the day but here's my take.

The 'provisional ball' is neither in play nor a provisional until the first stroke is made at it.
The clause about playing the provisional beyond the original only applies at the next stroke.
So the ball that went backwards off the tee markers is the ball in play until a stroke after the one 'creating' the provisional is made nearer the hole than the original. ie the second stroke with the second ball.

Hi Johanna

I'm aware that I'm losing this 5:1 at the moment so I may soon retire gracefully.

I have no issue with D.28/8 (R.20-5). That all makes perfect sense to me.

Doug

I know what you say is what the rules intend but I do not think that the wording says that precisely enough.

This is why I suggested: "Once a player has announced his intention, a ball subsequently played under rule 27-2a becomes a provisional ball only after the player has made a stroke at it." This would clearly define things IMO.

Otherwise some alternative wording to 27-2b that would make me feel more comfortable would be:
The player may continue to play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If, in continuing play with a provisional ball, he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

Alternative wording to “Lost Ball” Definition:
c. In continuing play with a provisional ball, the player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place.

HI Johanna,

AS a very new and inexperienced RO, I was rather interested in your reply to DC, with respect to droppinng a ball nearer.

I would rule, yes, if asked the question by a player, if a PB could be played in the scenario describe from the greenside bunker by DC. This is based solely on my understanding / interpretation of R27, indicated to DC in my replies to him.

However, you state it is "generally accepted" not to.

For my own development and understanding, would you mind expanding on your comment. Thanks, Ron.

Hi Ron,

When I say "it is generally accepted that a ball should not be dropped closer to the hole" I'm refering to a number of Rules when a ball is to be dropped. For example Rules 24 and 25 allow a player to drop the ball at a prescribed place NOT NEARER THE HOLE. The same goes for Rule 26-1c (ball in lateral water hazard) and Rule 28c (unplayable ball). Note that in these Rules A or THE ball is to be dropped within 1 or 2 club lengths.

Other Rules prescribe that A or THE ball be dropped as near as possible to where the ball originally laid, f.e. Rule 25-2 (embedded ball) and Rules 26-1a, 27-1 and 28a. Generally speaking the original spot is then known and there is no need to add the words "not nearer the hole".

Johanna

Where do you play golf Toxandria, the Netherlands

HI Johanna,

Many thanks for your reply. Much appreciated. I was not sure if your comment was associated with DC's scenario, obviously not, and the player was entitled to drop and play a PB from that position. Regards, Ron.

Hi Ron,

Indirectly my answer was related to DC's original question about playing a PB from a spot closer to the hole than where the original ball may be lying, as in DC's unfortunate bunker play .
There are instances when a ball may be dropped and played closer to the hole than the spot where the original ball may be, if that happens to be the spot from where a stroke with the original ball was last played.

Take care!
Johanna

Where do you play golf Toxandria, the Netherlands