I'm not going to get into discussing the rights and wrongs of shooting for 'sport'. Each to their own, but it's not my idea of fun.

I would agree to a point with the view that having each and every trap registered and identified is a bit bonkers. But consider that a properly set trap is more likely to be registered than an illegally set trap.

I shudder when I see some of the traps in our wild places, at least a registered trap is hopefully more humane in it's operation.

JJ

Challengers might be interested in seeing examples of legal and illegal traps set on a common route over The Unmentionable Mountains (apologies to recent readers - it's an old trope that has passed into Challenge Lore, instancing The M*nad*ia**s. A bit like actors referring to The Scottish Play . . . )

I've added OS references, and many of you will have passed this way. Photographs were taken in 2007. You'll see that the legal trap clearly displays an identifier (top image, centre of trap, coloured turquoise).

The illegal trap has a loose and open mesh. This trap has been in place for many years.

If we come across illegal traps we should document them and file reports.

I should add that I live on a 2,200 hectare estate (not mine, I hasten to add!) in the Scottish Borders and I'm familiar with land-management issues.

Alan I viewed the last challengers blog about 6 weeks ago and could have got involved in these discussions at that time but felt that it was getting out of hand. I realise it’s an emotive subject.
I appreciate your views and believe it or not I have similar views when it comes to killing animals. I simply cannot see why a trap needs to be identified to an estate. Pure unadulterated bureaucracy
Leave the estates alone to run their own business. I disagree with your view that “the Highland economy from this "sport" is tiny when compared to the overall highland economy”. Hunting is still a business which brings in much needed income to the highlands even though estates now can have a diversified economy which caters for a wider client base.

Hi Lawrie.
You're right of course. It is a very emotive subject, which is why I posted a very short factual comment with the link at the start of this thread, to try to take emotion out of it.

I will answer the two points you made though, as I don't want there to be any doubt over the issues.

You say you cannot see why a trap needs to be identified to an estate. I can only imagine this is because some estates' records of animal cruelty have been so dreadful in the past that the legislators thought it necessary for the traps to be individually logged to avoid any doubt when it came to the inevitable prosecutions. The tagging of the traps forces good management policies on to the estates.

As to leaving them alone to get on with their own business; Well, because of the track record of some estates, the RSPB and RSPCA would never agree to that and neither would the legislators.

You may well disagree with me over the size of the sporting estates' contribution, but I dealt with that quite clearly in the previous thread that I have linked to in this thread. The bald facts are that nature based tourism in Scotland is worth £1,400 million per year and grouse shooting contributes £23.3 million. I provided links for those statistics in the previous thread.

And, with perfect timing, the Scottish Tourism Minister, Fergus Ewing, has just launched the "Wildlife Tourism in Scotland Guide"

LINK

which says that "Wildlife tourism is already estimated to generate £276m a year for the Scottish economy. Ministers said the figure should rise further because of growing interest in sustainability and responsible tourism."

Alan you are a much respected contributor to the TGO message board.
I had the feeling that you would further respond to my comments. You are like a”terrier worrying a rat”, you will just not let it go.
Fergus Ewing’s "Wildlife Tourism in Scotland Guide" is spot on. Scotland has some amazing wildlife that we can be truly proud of.
Scottish wildlife is there because of these estates, Deer are the type of wildlife the public associate most with Scotland, according to a survey commissioned by Scottish Natural Heritage (SNH). This is mostly due to the husbandry of these hunting estates.

Hunting estates do contribute to the Scottish economy, at whatever level; they do bring in valuable employment to the local communities. They have been there for hundreds of years.
I am appalled when I read about the raptors that have been poisoned (that’s illegal) on a small minority of these estates and the culprit should be brought to justice, but we should not tar every estate with the same brush, they are not all criminals, ask the queen.
Estates need to cull certain predators.
I hate the thought of a weasel or stoat being caught in one of these traps, (legal) they are beautiful animals and are efficient killing machines, but if it’s necessary to maintain a supply of birds to maintain employment then I can live with that.
Time to come off our soap boxes, we just have different opinions.

Lawrie

It's difficult to know how to answer your last post when, in one breath you say I am "a much respected contributor to the message board" and in the very next I am "like a terrier worrying a rat, you will just not let it go."

To say "Scottish wildlife is there because of these estates" stretches credulity. Raptors & small mammals have been persecuted by estates in Scotland ever since they came into being. White tailed eagles were hunted to extinction and golden eagles almost so, by these very same estates that you are so keen to defend.

The majority of the hunting estates are there primarily for the production of very few species to the detriment of a host of others. One of the gamekeepers' prime roles is to keep the levels of "vermin," as you so tastelessy described corvids, raptors and small furry creatures with big teeth, down to levels that will not impinge on the production levels of game species. They create their own version of a monoculture, decimating 'undesirable' species.

But, as you have said previously "Its my view that Gamekeepers should be left to reduce the numbers or eradicate the vermin that blight their profession by whatever way possible, as long as it is humane," I shall not attempt to change your mind.

My initial, emotion-free post is still there for Challenge folk who do have an open mind and want to know the facts about legal and illegal traps.

Let's be clear about this: It is illegal to trap animals in illegally set traps. I suggest that if Challengers do find illegal traps they report them to the police so they can nail the offending keepers and estate owners who continue to install and sanction their use.

Thanks Alan for drawing attention to this problem. It's not something I've really encountered but it's good to know what to look out for and what action to take (photo, grid ref, report).

Challengers and other walkers can make an important contribution in ensuring that only legal traps are used. It's impossible for the police/animal welfare groups etc to monitor every area, so it's good that we can help. Hopefully, we can help deter those who seek to flout the law.

Well done, Alan

Alan I truly meant that you are a much respected contributor to the TGO site and I enjoy your comments.
You do have your opinions which you hang onto and defend like a terrier. Not a bad thing.
I understand your stance on wildlife, and believe it or not I have a very similar attitude.
White tailed eagles –sea eagle -golden eagles hunted or nearly hunted to extinction, that was a long time ago as were beaver (re-introduced) wolves bison etc. which have not been reintroduced (as yet)
We differ on our views on modern estate wildlife management, that’s all.
The good news is that we have the freedom to roam in Bonnie Scotland, the bad news is we will come across these traps and yes on the next crossing or any other sojourn into the hills and I come across an illegal trap you can be assured that I will report it to the police, guaranteed.

I suggest we all have a Great Big Group Hug.



There. That's better.

If we have a Tourism Minister who is so proud of the income from nature and wildlife tourism, can he not do something about all those windfarms and mega-pylons??

Ah Jean, the wonders of Scottish politics!

Fergus Ewing is Minister for Energy, Enterprise & Tourism.

So with one hat on he says he wants more wind farms, with another hat he doles out money (yours, that is) to build them and with his third hat he takes pretty pictures of the Highlands that don't include any turbines at all.

Fergus "used to be a member of the the Lomond Mountain Rescue Team, and has climbed around two thirds of Scotland's Munroes."

That's taken from his bio on the Scottish Government's own website. LINK

You would have thought he would have known better.

Alan, do you think we could entice him on to the Challenge? That might change the course of Scottish politics - what a record for the GOC!

A clarification:
Earlier in the thread I mentioned that the RSPCA should be one of the agencies that could be contacted. It's been pointed out to me that in Scotland this should be the SSPCA.

With the 2013 Challenge shortly upon us, now's a good time to remind Challengers about legal and illegally set animal traps and what to do if you find an illegal trap.

LINK