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Because we are working with divergent basic definitions of truth there will be subject agreement difficulties in this communication.
1. A definition you are using: “the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality”
2. A definition I am using: “laws by which something works” (got this from an old Oxford dictionary)
With the definition you are using (1), there is an automatic dichotomy; property/statement and an objective reference – fact/reality. This definition (1) refers to a duality, a symbolic representation of an event.
The definition I am working from (2) is more cause and effect related. A reality or facts are an effect of a set of truths/laws. Physical reality (actual reality) is the effect of physical truths/laws: gravity, motion, thermodynamics, etc. Without the ‘truths’ of the physical there would be no physical. There would be no ‘reality’ or ‘fact’ or any language whatsoever.
The same occurs with cultural realities being an effect of social laws (consensual reality truths – agreed upon truths).
I won’t get into individual realities because that’s another ‘can-o-worms’.
So, one tension in our communications lies in that you are using truth as a symbolic representation of an event while I am talking about truth as the laws that sustain or make the event up.
As you pointed out, in both cases, the words are not the reality. The word gravity has nothing to do with the force that binds solar systems and galaxies together. In both cases, the words are once or twice removed from the actuality.
I agree that no truth (as I am using the term) is in a word (other than the physical truths that are used to express the word). Words and language can be the effects of truths and they are not the truths.
Bottom line, the communications elements (1) becomes a special case within a whole system (2).
There are a number of other major differences in these two definitions also. Some of which you have touched on. Some truths (2) as in cultural truth/laws (consensual reality truths) are dependent; they must be enforced or re-enforced. They can not stand alone. They must be ‘believed’.
While other truths/laws are independent of belief (actual reality truths). They ‘are’ whether you want to believe them or not.
[While, some of these are even invulnerable; they can not be hurt or touched in any way. How does one ‘punch-out’ gravity? The concept is non-sequitar.]
Some ‘truths’ can change with time while other ‘truths’ never change. Or, as it has been stated in numerous world religions and mystical thought systems, “Truth is eternal.”
Because you are using the word religion in the legal sense i.e. organized, I would tend to agree with some of the weaknesses of ‘religion’. At best, world religions may only contain some symbolic representations of these laws – ‘truths’.
As stated in the beginning, there are things we agree upon; and because of questions of semantics and nomenclature this keeps total agreement from occurring.
Peace--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Replying to: To your first paragraph, I believe there is a phrase in the bible somewhere (there are actual gems scattered throughout the text, this is one, another one is "resist not evil", the rest of the phrase it is in is not relevent...but back to my original point)
"thou shall not look upon the face of god and live", i.e. it would be like trying to grab hold of a million volts, it would fry your mind. This is as you suggest.
What is a truth? Are we talking truth or fact? One definition of truth is “the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality” Who’s reality, and at what scope? Personal truths are important, of course, their bearing or relationship to actual truths...well, that depends, typically they are vastly different. Same applies to cultural truths. Personal truths, even through a cultural lens do not become an organized religion unless there are enough who share the same end result. There are individual, and uncountable group consciousnesses, the filtering, clothing you refer to, of the cultural variety, generally does not have near the influence of personal filters. Although when they line up they can act as a magnifier.
Religions do not offer truth, there only happens to be some truths within the religion. There is the nature of creation, the nature of manifestation on all the planes. It simply is the way it is. Now, the way individuals perceive it, or to connect to it is through constructs of the mind, that has no effect on the reality that they work with.
There are “universal laws”, and the use of the word is based on this definition “ a statement of an order or relation of phenomena that so far as is known is invariable under the given conditions b: a general relation proved or assumed to hold between mathematical or logical expressions”.
Science explores the physical planes, and have laws of physics, chemistry and so forth. There are also laws of emotion, of love and of mental constructs, laws of consciousness if you will. These are not abstract concepts, they are vibrations, energy, and follow the laws of their planes. For instance in the bible, if one strictly avoids the 7 deadly sins, and follows the 10 commandments (generally speaking) one will be working in the direction of evolution, going with the wind. Going against them brings consequences of resistance the evolution of the universe. In my mind I would say resisting the unfolding of God. Do bear in mind that the laws are not the truth, they are a way of describing the truth, the words we use. The truth is something we know inside, but this is not an awareness that we have cultivated over the millennia. The message always gets lost in translation. The glamour of the outside world blinds us. Do not forget we can believe what we like, it does not necessarily make it so.
And I believe its not a matter of applying a Truth, we do not know what THE TRUTH is, we seek it, we question, we stay curious and wonder and we enjoy the journey...
Regards,
Allan
Replying to Stephen
Everything you've said is so true.
It reflects the idea that no finite mortal mind can encompass the Infinite and Eternal. Be it one mind or many (organized philosophy or religion); mortal mind/s just don't have the capabilities.
Even at that, what spiritual truths that are in an individual's mortal perception becomes translated/filtered/clothed by the cultural lens of that moment in time; they become an organized religion. These 'truths' are also subject to individual and group agendas.
(Definition of truth used here: laws by which something works.}
It's ironic. When organized religion projects the Divine outside of the self, Man (Mankind) lost touch with the ever-present presence within.
It's too bad that we don't look at the one consciousness as a fact of life like gravity, ever present and constant.
And...that one's religion is really an individual's personal relationship -- mortal mind's relationship -- to that One consciousness and the Love behind it.
Then personal religion would become a question of how much an individual wishes to apply the Truth of that Love. Just as how we walk depends on how we choose to apply the truth of gravity.
Thank You
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